In order to do their best creative work, teams have to learn how to respect everyone’s individuality and collaborate effectively. Author Kim Scott says building a culture of inclusivity starts with learning how to identify and respond to bias, prejudice, and bullying.

In this episode of the Creative Confidence Podcast, Kim shares a framework for identifying harmful behavior and choosing a response, tools leaders can use to disrupt bias, and ways to be an upstander at work.

Listen on Spotify or Apple Podcasts

 

In this episode with Kim, we cover:

(1:30) What Kim learned from writing Radical Candor

(5:00) The 4 roles we all play

(8:00) Defining bias, prejudice, and bullying

(9:40) How to identify bias and how to respond

(12:47) How to identify prejudice and how to respond

(15:08) How to identify bullying and how to respond

(16:56) Using the I, It, You framework to respond

(27:30) How to be an upstander at work: the 5 Ds

(30:48) Audience Q&A

(40:30) Closing

 

Resources:

• Kim Scott on LinkedIn
• Kim Scott’s books
• Just Work: How to Confront Bias, Prejudice, and Bullying to Build a Culture of Inclusivity
• Radical Candor: Be a Kick-Ass Boss Without Losing Your Humanity
• Slides shared during the talk

• Radical Candor Podcast
• On Kim’s podcast, she’s encouraging people to share personal stories of bias, prejudice and bullying. If you’d like to share, contact her at hello@justworktogether.com.
• Schedule a talk or workshop with Kim at Justworktogether.com.
• Find previous episodes, RSVP for live events, and subscribe to IDEO U’s Creative Confidence Podcast at ideou.com/podcast.

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If you want to learn how to tap into diverse perspectives to foster creative thinking, check out IDEO U’s online course, Cultivating Creative Collaboration.

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About the Speaker

 

Kim Scott
Author

Kim Scott is the author of Just Work: How to Confront Bias, Prejudice, and Bullying to Build a Culture of Inclusivity and Radical Candor: Be a Kick-Ass Boss Without Losing Your Humanity and co-founder of the company Radical Candor. Kim was a CEO coach at Dropbox, Qualtrics, Twitter, and other tech companies. She was a member of the faculty at Apple University and before that led AdSense, YouTube, and DoubleClick teams at Google. Prior to that Kim managed a pediatric clinic in Kosovo and started a diamond-cutting factory in Moscow. She lives with her family in Silicon Valley.

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Transcript:

Lauren Collins Scott:

Hi everyone, and welcome to the Creative Confidence Podcast, where we talk to special guests and subject matter experts about creativity, leadership, innovation, and growth. I'm Lauren Collins Scott, an executive design director at IDEO, and I'll be your host for today. Quick reminder that we always open up the last portion of our podcast for your question, so please share them in the chat. Um, I see some of you've already started already, but please let us know where you're calling in from. I see some folks from Gainesville, from Minneapolis, all the way from Chile and even Plano, Texas. I'm really excited for our conversation today. Today we'll be speaking with author Kim Scott about how to confront Bias, prejudice, and boy at work. Hi Kim.

Kim Scott:

Hi, how are you? I'm just typing in that I'm from Los Altos, California. . It's lovely seeing where everyone is.

Lauren:

Wonderful. I'm calling in from Atlanta, Georgia. So Kim Scott is the author of Just Work, how to Confront Bias, prejudice and Bullying to build a culture of Inclusivity and Radical Candor Via Kick Be a Kickass Boss without losing your humanity and co-founder of the company. Radical Candor. Kim was a CEO coach at Dropbox, Qualtrics, Twitter and other tech companies. She was a member of the faculty at Apple University, and before that, led AdSense, YouTube and DoubleClick teams at Google. Prior to that, Kim managed a pediatric clinic in Kosovo and started a diamond cutting factory in Moscow. Um, and as she just mentioned, she now lives with her family in Silicon Valley. Kim recently came to IDEO to give a talk about her newest book and the framework she created. We found it so impactful that we wanted to give her on this podcast, um, to share all of her tools with the community here. So Kim, we're gonna go ahead and jump right into it. You have a really interesting work history. We just mentioned you manage a pediatric clinic in Kosovo and started a diamond cutting factory in Moscow. Is there a skill or learning from one of those past jobs that you employ in your work today?

Kim:

Absolutely. You know, it was when I was starting up that diamond cutting factory in Moscow that I realized that management is actually something interesting and could create a more just world. Uh, in fact, I was, I had to hire some Russian diamond cutters, and I wanna pause for a moment to say that the invasion of Ukraine has really hit me hard. Uh, because the thing that these diamond cutters, these Russian diamond cutters taught me was that the, you know, when I first tried to hire them, they, I thought, oh, this is gonna be easy. The ruble is collapsing and the dollar is strong, and I'm just gonna pay people. That's all management is about is paying people. Right? , it's kind of boring. And so I offered these diamond cutters a salary that was like 10 times more than they were currently getting.

And I expected them all to say yes immediately, but instead they said, no, uh, what we wanna do is we wanna first have a picnic. And I was like, okay, well I can do a picnic too. That's easy. And we got all the way through a bottle of vodka, and by the end they, uh, what I realized was that the thing that I had to offer that the state did not have to offer was not money. It was to give a damn. It was, they wanted to know that their boss would care enough about them to get them out of Russia if things went sideways there. Wow. And uh, and as you can imagine, I've been thinking a lot of the about those, those folks, uh, lately. Cause I think they, they are there. I've lost touch with them. But, uh, but, but I did care and we had a great relationship and we had a lot of fun working together. And that was when I realized that, that being a manager can is actually sort of interesting. It's you, you bring your full humanity to the task and it's more fun than I understood.

Lauren:

That's such a great special learning and yes. Much, much deeper than just paying people . Yes. So I'm glad that you're able to go ahead and start off in sharing things with us right away. Um, so let's get into the conversation. Your first book, Radical Candor, became a New York Times bestseller. So in this book, you give a framework for how to give feedback in a clear, consistent and kind way. Um, but since publishing that book, you've gotten some feedback that that framework might not necessarily work for everyone. Um, can you share with us a little bit more about that feedback and how that led you to publish Just Work?

Kim:

Sure, absolutely. I was invited to give a Radical Candor talk at a tech company in San Francisco, and I had known the CEO of that company for the better part of a decade. She's a person I like and respect enormously, so I was really excited to give the talk. And when I finished giving the talk, she pulled me aside and she said, Kim, I'm excited to roll out radical candor. I think that it's going to help me build the kind of culture I want, but I gotta tell you, it's much harder for me to roll it out than it is for you. And she went on to explain to me that as soon as she would offer anyone, even the most compassionate, gentle criticism, she would get signed with the angry black woman stereotype. And I knew that this was true. She's one of too few black CEOs in tech, or frankly in any other sector.

And I knew that this was true. And as soon as she said it to me, I had sort of four revelations at the same time. The first was that I had not been the kind of colleague that I imagined myself to be, that I aspired to be. I had failed to be an upstander. I had been sort of a silent bystander to her experiencing that, that kind of, uh, that those kinds of comments. And in fact, I often hadn't even noticed the extent to which people were saying things like that to her. And the extent to which she had to show up unfailingly cheerful and pleasant at every meeting we had ever been in together, even though she had what to be ticked off about as we all do at work. Of course. So that was the first thing I had. I sort of had to come to grips with my failure as an upstander.

The second thing that I realized was that not only had I been in denial about the kinds of things that were happening to her in the workplace, I was also in denial about the kinds of things that were happening to me as a white woman in the workplace. I, I think I didn't wanna think of either myself or of her as a victim. And because we have such a strange, a strange attitude towards victims in our society. And so I had just been in denial. I had marched through my whole career sort of pretending that a whole host of things were not happening, that were in fact happening kind of hard for the author of a book called Radical Candor to admit. But there it is, it was the truth. And I think that even less than wanting to think of myself as a victim, did I ever wanna think of myself as the culprit.

And so I was probably even deeper in denial about the kinds of things that I had done, the, the biases that I had, the prejudices even that I had, and the times when I had bullied folks. Uh, I never intended to do those things, but intentions don't matter, impact does.

And last but not least, I realized that as a leader, I had imagined that I was creating these BS free zones, but I had often failed to do that. And that was those sort of four revelations at the same time were what prompted me to write my next book, Just Work, and to organize it around those four different roles, the roles, uh, the, the roles that we all play. Sometimes were the leaders, sometimes were the upstander, sometimes were the person who's harmed and sometimes we're the person who caused harm. So that, uh, that was feedback that I'm really grateful for.

And I think it's also worth pausing and sort of thinking about the different responsibilities we have in each of those roles, because I had, I think, a responsibility to intervene on behalf of my colleague when, when she was getting this kind of, because like, it's ridiculous to call her angry. And the fact that people were calling her an angry black woman was a giant hint that there was , there was something else going on besides feedback. Absolutely. Um, yeah. Uh, and, and I had failed to intervene. But I think when, when we are the person harmed and, and we're all harmed in some way, shape, or form by different biases, we're all excluded. Sometimes I think it was incumbent upon me to choose a response rather than to default to silence. I'm not saying you always have to respond, cuz sometimes it may not be safe for one to do so, and I don't wanna get people in more trouble that, you know, cause more trouble for people than they're already having.

But I think that by defaulting to silence, I was giving up my agency throughout my career. And so what I encourage folks to do is to be proactive. If you're gonna, if you're gonna choose silence, be proactive. Make that a choice, not a default. Because as Audra Lorde said, your silence will not protect you. I think it's also worth sort of exploring the hidden costs of silence feels safer, but it often is not. Um, and next, the person who caused harm, I, I think it's really hard to acknowledge when, when, for me at least, and I imagine for for a lot of other people as well, when I have said or done something that's biased when I've said or done something that's actually prejudiced, or when I've bullied someone else, it's really, I feel deeply ashamed That is not who I imagined myself to be.

That's not what I want to be. And so learning how to acknowledge it when we have caused harm and to make amends, not just to apologize, but, but to really make sure that we know what we did wrong and to, to take steps to make it right.

Uh, and last but not least, I think leaders have an obligation, a responsibility to prevent bias, prejudice, and bullying from destroying their team's ability to collaborate. But of course, bias, prejudice and bullying are almost inevitable. These are human behavior. So at the very least, they need to respond in a way that prevents it from happening again. It's the joy of being a leader is that you have to prevent things that are bound to happen.

Lauren:

Thank you, Kim. I love that you took that feedback that you received and were so reflective with it, and were able to think through the different ways that individuals could respond as well as the responsibility that they have. You mentioned a term upstander, which I'll let the audience know. We're going to unpack that a little bit more later in the conversation. Kim, you also mentioned a few other terms that I'd love you to define for the audience. So bias, prejudice, and bullying. If you could give us a brief definition of each of those.

Kim:

Sure. I think as I, as I was writing the book, I thought about why I so often defaulted to silence. And I think part of the reason is that I was conflating bias, prejudice and bullying as though they were all the same thing. And they're actually three different things. So I want to define bias as not meaning it. Bias is usually unconscious. It's reflective of some sort of pattern that is in our society as human beings, we are pattern makers, but we can also change patterns that are not serving as well, that are, that are harming us. So that's bias. Whereas prejudice is a very consciously held belief, usually reflecting some kind of stereotype that is both unfair and inaccurate. And, uh, and, and distinguishing between bias and prejudice is really important. And, and lastly, there's bullying. Usually with bullying, there's no belief, conscious or unconscious going on at all. It's just being mean. Hmm. Uh, and so, so for me, it was very helpful to begin, uh, if you wanna solve a hard problem, it's, it's useful to break it down into parts and, and solve one part at a time.

Lauren:

Yes. I think that's super clear and super helpful. Know what you're starting with. And with the Just Work framework, you've also created a response to each of these. Do you wanna start with bias again, starting with what is it? And then give us an example of a story and how someone should respond in a moment like that and then we can move on to prejudice and bullying as well.

Kim:

Sure. Absolutely. So bias, again, not meaning it. One of my favorite stories about a great response to bias comes from Aileen Lee who started Cowboy Ventures. And she was going into a meeting with two colleagues who were men. And Aileen had the expertise that was gonna win her team the deal. So when they went into the conference room, she sat in the center and her two colleagues sat off to her left. And when the other side filed in, the first person sat across from the guy to Aileen’s left, the next person sat across from the guy to his left. And then they filed on down the table leaving Aileen dangling by herself. And that's often how bias shows up, who decides to sit next to or across from whom. Aileen, however, was undeterred and she started talking and explaining things. And when the other side had questions, they did not direct their questions at Aileen. They directed them at her two colleagues who were men. It happened once. Had anybody ever hear this happen?

Lauren:

Yes. I'm like this. Yes. This is very resonant.

Kim:

Yeah. So it happened once, it happened twice. And the third time it happened, one of her colleagues stood up and he said, I think Aileen and I should switch seats. And that was all he had to do to totally change the dynamic in the room. It's an example of an I statement. An I statement, sort of invites other people in to notice what's going on and to change it on the assumption that they don't really mean to do it. And as soon as he said that, the dynamic in the room changed and people started listening to Aileen. And that was really important to him. It was, you know, why did he do that? Why did he choose to be an upstander in that moment? And in that way, part of it was that he really liked Aileen and he didn't like seeing her get ignored, but he also did it because he just wanted to win the deal, . And, and he knew that if he couldn't get the other people listening to her, they wouldn't win the deal. So I think it's important to, to think about both the emotional and the ethical and the practical reasons to disrupt bias. And one doesn't have to undermine the other. In fact, they all, they all work together.

Lauren:

I really like that example because he didn't necessarily even accuse anyone of anything. Right. Yeah. He just, he just, brought attention, like you said to something. He noticed something and he changed the dynamics in the room.

Kim:

Yeah. He invited people in to understand. And that's the benefit of, I think, an I statement. I don't think you meant that the way it sounded, or I don't, you know, I I I think that sounded biased. Even if you do wanna sort of, you, we don't have to tiptoe around the tulips of bias. , we can say it, but I think that what he did was very, very deft in that situation.

Lauren:

Yes. Because of course he still needed to win the deal in the end.

Kim:

Yes, yes. Exactly. Exactly. Uh, but so he was sort of holding up a mirror, right? Mm-hmm. , but that doesn't work so well in prejudice.

Lauren:

Yes, let's get into prejudice. Yes.

Kim:

Yeah. Yeah. Cuz if you hold up a mirror to prejudice, the other person's gonna grin in that mirror and say, yeah, aren't I good looking? You know? Mm-hmm. , they, they, they actually believe that thing. And it's difficult, I think, to imagine often that someone else actually believes that prejudice thing. And, and I think that's one of the problems in dealing with prejudice is, is, is it's really, do you really believe that? So here's, here's an example of a colleague of mine who was dealing with prejudice in a hiring meeting. There was a team of people who had interviewed a bunch of different candidates, and everyone who had interviewed all the candidates agreed that the most qualified person for the job was a Black woman who had worn her hair out naturally in the meeting. And when the hiring manager heard that, she said, well, I'm not gonna extend an offer to that candidate.

Kim:

And my colleague said, why not? And the hiring manager said, I'm not gonna put that hair in front of the business . And this was not a long time ago. And it was at a, a, a company that everyone knows and, and probably has some respect for. So my colleague was shocked. So what could she say in that moment? She could use an IT statement. An IT statement kind of paints a picture of where the line is between one person's freedom to believe whatever they want, but they can't impose those beliefs on others. So in its statement can appeal to the law, it can appeal to an HR policy, or it can appeal to common sense. So it is illegal not to hire someone because of their hair, which it was in that state thanks to the Crown Act. Or it is an HR violation not to hire someone because of their hair, which it was at that company. Or if the law and the HR policy hadn't been in place, she could simply have said, it is ridiculous not to hire the most qualified candidate because of their hair. And so that's an example of an it statement. Much easier to sit here and say there's a clear line between one person's freedom to believe whatever they want, but they can't oppose it. But where is that line, like creating space for conversation to discuss that is really important.

Lauren:

Yeah. I, I really like both of these examples. Frankly. It is someone else who's stepping in to point out, you know, the bias and the prejudice and um, whether it's using an I statement or the its statement. Let's get to the real toughy bullying. Yes. Can you again, reground us in what bullying is and how someone should respond in that moment?

Kim:

So bullying at its most basic form is just being mean to someone. And I think a great response to bullying is not an I statement, but rather a you statement. If an I statement kind of invites someone in, a you statement pushes them away a little bit. Hmm. My daughter actually taught me this when she was in third grade. She was getting bullied on the playground and I was encouraging her to say, you know, assume good intent of this kid and say to this kid, I feel sad when you blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And she bangs her fist on the table and she said, mom, they are trying to make me feel sad. Why would I tell them they succeeded? mm-hmm. to admit. That's a really good point. And so a you statement, it's, you know, it's not the most dramatic thing in the world, but you can't talk to me like that.

Kim:

Or what's going on for you here? This is not how you usually act. Or even kind of a you non-sequitur. Like, where'd you get that shirt? The point is, when you're using a you statement, you're asking the other person to respond to you. You're not taking on this sort of toxic bullying that they're, that they're sending your way. Um, not, you know, it's not always gonna make you feel much better, but, but in my experience, at least, starting with the word you and then saying something else helps me retain my sense of agency in the moment.

Lauren:

Thank you for that. I see a question in the chat that kind of connects back to what we were mentioning earlier in terms of some of the feedback that you got with radical candor. So the question is, what if no ally is available when you're being biased against? So yes. If there isn't someone else to step into what's happening, whether someone is being biased, prejudice or bullying, what advice do you have for people? And also how do you think about that? In terms of someone's identity?

Kim:

Yes. So I think that very often when, when this stuff is coming at you, you're not sure whether it's bias, prejudice or bullying, and that's okay. So you can respond with what you think it is and then you'll learn something. So if you think it's bias, say the word I, even if you dunno what's gonna come outta your mouth next. If you think, if it feels like prejudice, say the word it and then just notice what comes outta your mouth next. If you think it is bullying, say the word you and then not for me. That's very helpful cuz often I don't know what to say. So that's like an example of what to say when you don't know what to say. What if you don't know what it is. So I'll share a story about a small, a small incident that happened to me, uh, a quote unquote small incident, but it could take us 45 minutes to unpack this.

Kim:

So I was about to go give another radical candor talk. I was about to go on stage and give a radical candor talk. And this was at a tech conference. And so, and it was for tech founders and, and I was, there were very, very few women at this conference. It was probably, I was, there were about 150 people in maybe 10 women who were either entrepreneurs or, or speakers. And so I was about to go on stage and start talking and this man runs up to me and he says, where can I get a safety pin ? And I'm like, wow, what, what , you know? And I realized that he had popped a button off his shirt and he assumed that I was one of the people staffing the conference. And then it was my job to go fetch him a safety pin.

Kim:

And even though the people staffing the conference were a solid 20 years younger than me and all wearing bright yellow t-shirts, like all he could, they, they had tried to prevent this kind of thing right from happening, the conference organizers. All he could notice was my gender and his need. And so I should have said something. I, I wish in retrospect that I had said something. Uh, and, and I could have said, you know, I don't work here . It was the classic, uh, I don't know where the safety pins are. If I had assumed it was bias or I could have said the, the, and, and let me, that's probably where I would start actually. Yeah. With I, you know, I don't work here, why didn't, but I said nothing and I, I wanna kind of, I, I wish I had said something, but I wanna kind of explore why I said nothing. If I had, if it were bias, it, it probably would've been fine, but there's always the possibility that it's prejudice or bullying. So what if I had said I don't work here, there's some possibility that it was not biased, that he then would've responded and said something like, oh, you're the radical candor lady. I don't believe in that soft feminine mm-hmm. , uh, leadership.

Lauren:

He would've made his position clear.

Kim:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. He would've and he, he would've stated that he didn't believe I should be up there. And it's unlikely that that would happen, but certainly not impossible. In fact, it has happened to me, as you can imagine, more than once. And, uh, in fact, some publishers refused to publish the book for that reason. Wow. And so, so there that could have happened. Uh, and, and then I would've gone on stage angry cuz bias is annoying, but prejudice really can knock, can knock me off my game. Mm-hmm. , there's also the possibility that he would've said to me, oh, don't get your panties in a wad, you know, he would've started bullying me also, you know, not likely. But has that been said to me before? Yes, it has more than once. And so I think that when we've experienced a lot of bias, prejudice and bullying throughout our careers, and, and I have experienced less, I mean, I have a number of P privileges, which means that by and large I've probably been giving, given, uh, credit more than I, you know, deserved.

Kim:

But I think that when you've experienced those things often enough, it can, it can make it harder to respond. Mm-hmm. it can make it easier and more tempting to default to silence. Uh, and somebody's asking a really good question, how much does power have to do with your response? Mm-hmm. , and this is why I so regret not responding because I did have, I was kind of in the role I thought of myself at the time in the role of the person harmed by this. Yeah. But actually in that situation, I was a leader. I was one of the speakers at the conference. And so it was actually my job to respond. I didn't have the right, in fact, I would argue to choose not to respond if I were only the person harmed. In that case, I would have every right to choose not to respond. But as a leader, I had an obligation to respond so that I could prevent him from doing that. Kind of saying that kind of thing. Again, not to attack him. I mean, I if it, if it were bias, he didn't wanna be doing that. Mm-hmm. . And if it were prejudice or bullying, you know, it was my job to offer some education.

Lauren:

So you've given us absolutely the responsibility of a leader. But what if someone isn't a leader? They're not a manager, they're not in a position of power. Yeah. You know, what kind of tools do you have for those individuals?

Kim:

So when, when you're the person harmed, I, what I would encourage folks to do is if it's bias, prejudice or bullying, to make sure that they're being proactive in choosing their response. And it's perfectly fine to choose silence. Mm-hmm. Tony Morrison said that the, the function of racism is distraction. It keeps us from getting our work done. And I think that's true of, of racism, of sexism, of, of bias, prejudice and bullying, uh, in, in all the different ways they make them themselves manifest. And so you get to choose whether or not you're gonna take the time. It's not your obligation to educate people. Uh, but at the same time, I think there's a risk in defaulting to silence, as I said before, because very often in my career, I just, I told myself I was choosing not to respond, but actually I was defaulting to silence.

Kim:

And over time, that sort of robbed me of a feeling of agency. Mm-hmm. . And especially as I got more, more senior in my career, I had more of an, I was more of a leader. I had more of an obligation. It was easier also for me to, to speak out than it was earlier in my career. But I think that it, the, the other thing that I recommend if you're the person harmed, is to begin to build solidarity with others. Cuz it's so easy to feel gas lit. Yes. In the heat of the moment. And so talking to other people, there was one, one person who I talked to who said that they organized a spaghetti dinner once a month with, with a bunch of underrepresented colleagues. And they would talk about the most ridiculous thing that happened to them at work, .

Kim:

And they would practice with each other how to respond when it happens again. And so I think that kind of solidarity is really important to, to build so that you don't feel so gas lit. I also think it can be really helpful to begin documenting what's happening, even if you have no intention of suing. Uh, but that can also help dispel gaslighting because it's so easy to feel like, is it, what is it me? Like, did I do something wrong? And, uh, and especially in the, in the, in the case of bullying. And so just writing down what happened can help, can help dispel gaslighting. And then the other thing I would encourage people who were harmed by these behaviors to do is to locate the exit near a stu mm-hmm. , uh, early in my career, I had a really pretty terrible experience. And when I finally quit and took a new job, several people came to me and said, why didn't you tell me you were looking? I would've hired you. And I had no idea that, I mean, and granted, uh, uh, this is probably speaking from a position of privilege. We often are in a situation where we, it's not so easy to get another job, but knowing, like, go out there and explore and find out if you do have, if you can locate the exit nearest you, because then it makes it much easier to, to respond with, you know, more forcefully than you might otherwise respond. And to take your agency back.

Lauren:

Um, your story reminds me, when I was more junior in my career, I was working in Europe for an extended period of time mm-hmm. , and my manager was French, I'm American. And I don't know if it was bias prejudice or bullying, but she made a point to dismiss almost anything I said with, she doesn't understand, she's American. Oh. Um, it didn't matter what I was saying, . Um, and she, and she always said it about me to other people, and it was really deflating. It was, you know, it was definitely gaslighting. It made me question, you know, my confidence, my self worth. And, um, to that point about, I, I documented it for a while. I tried to get HR involved and mm-hmm. , um, that wasn't really successful. And at some point I just took, took my agency back and decided to leave the organization.

Kim:

Yeah. I would say that's probably prejudice. Uh, I mean, she was justifying it, you know, she was saying, saying it out loud, but I don't know. I mean, you never really know what's going mm-hmm. On . It's, and often prejudice, uh, and bullying go hand in hand. Um, yes. So, so it's not like these things are mutually exclusive and collectively exhaustive. There's overlap between bias, prejudice and bullying.

Lauren:

Absolutely. The bullying could be based on prejudice. Um, yeah. I wanna make sure we have time for questions and also spend a little time exploring the word upstander. Um, which some folks might refer to as an ally. But if you could talk a little bit more about the role of upstanders and how to be one at word chem, that would be super helpful for the audience.

Kim:

Sure. So the role of upstander is to intervene. That's your responsibility. And, and the goal is to stand up to the bias or the prejudice or the bullying or whatever for maybe it was discrimination or harassment or a physical violation. But to stand up, you, you notice something and it didn't seem right and you wanna stand up to it. It's not standing up for someone. You don't wanna wind up like the knight in shining armor or the white savior or something like that. Yes. Uh, but you, you wanna make sure that you are acknowledging what happened. And, and there's an organization called Hollaback that, that has the five Ds. And you can do this directly. Like maybe you can say something, uh, to the person who was, who was causing harm directly, but maybe that doesn't feel safe. Mm-hmm. Maybe you wanna just delay, maybe you wanna pull the person who was harmed by the behavior aside later and talk to them and say, are you okay?

Kim:

And that can be actually really valuable. There was one time when I was working with, uh, I loved the French, but I'm gonna tell a story. a story about a Frenchman who I worked with, who we were. He, he was introducing me and two colleagues who were men to, to an audience of like 5,000 people. So there are a lot of people in the room. Hmm. And he introduced the first man and shook his hand and introduced the second man and shook his hand. And then he introduced me and I stuck my hand out for him to shake it. And he grabbed it and kissed it, like practically licked it. It was a totally cringe moment. And that was gross. Like, that was not ideal. But what was even worse was that nobody came up to be later and said, that was weird. Or, you know, and then I was like, I was like, was I the only person who thought that was weird?

Kim:

You know? So it was, if you don't, if you don't at the very least check in with the person, then you're sort of contributing to the gaslighting you may be experiencing. Mm-hmm. . Uh, the third thing you can do is you can delegate, you can ask someone else who may be in a better position than you are to intervene. You can document what is happening or you can just create a distraction. There's an article in the Times about snack Man, this guy who sort of threw his potato chips in on a subway to distract someone who was, uh, who was pursuing someone else. So, so that to me is very helpful. Cuz one of the reasons why I wrote just work is in gratitude for the, for the large number of people in my career who, who were upstanders. But I, you know, I don't wanna tell Upstanders, uh, I don't wanna give upstanders advice that's gonna cause more harm for them. So there's a lot of different ways to stand up to, uh, something wrong when you notice it.

Lauren:

Awesome. Well, we've got a few minutes for questions. Um, and it sounds like most of them are coming from people who probably aren't in positions of leadership and art managers. There's a question around at some point we have to pick our battles. How do you recommend we do that and also connect it? Do you ever consider what's the opportunity cost to action versus putting it in a box?

Kim:

Yes. So I, I think that this is a very, uh, this is a very personal choice. Mm-hmm. , uh, what I would encourage people to do is to sort of try to understand what do a cost benefit analysis , what's the cost? What are the risks? Mm-hmm. , so the risks are real. I don't wanna pretend they're not there speaking up, but also make sure you understand the risks of remaining silent. Mm-hmm. , what is that doing to your self-esteem? What is that doing to your sense of agency? Uh, I, I also want to encourage people. Very often people get sort of, they experience these things and rather than admitting to themselves that they're starting to look for a new job and they already have one foot out the door, uh, they, they pretend like they're ignoring it, you know? Mm-hmm. . And if they had realized that they could get another job and that therefore the risks that mitigates a lot of the risks of talking to the person who said or did the biased prejudice or bullying thing, then all of a sudden it becomes safer to have these conversations. And, and sometimes, not always, but sometimes the person will say, oh my gosh, I am really sorry and you won't have to leave your job . And, uh, and so I think you wanna protect yourself, but creating the conditions and the possibility for the right thing to happen mm-hmm. , uh, it can, can be, can be helpful, but I don't wanna overpromise. Like, very often you'll talk to the person and they'll behave in the worst possible way, but that's okay if you already know you can get another job somewhere else.

Lauren:

Yes. I like that cost benefit analysis. Another interesting question we have is trying to understand the difference between a toxic colleague and bullying. So how would you classify and deal with a toxic colleague who indirectly bullies other people?

Kim:

There's a lot of overlap. I mean, a toxic colleague is usually a bully. Mm-hmm. . Uh, but sometimes a toxic colleague can be very passive aggressive, not, not sort of an overt, and sometimes that passive aggressive toxic colleague is harder to deal with than, than the one who is more of an overt bully. So I think that, I think that the thing to do is to, to try to avoid labeling people and start to break down actions. Mm. What is this person doing? What is this person saying that is problematic? And because there are some people who are toxic, who when they become aware that they're, that they're saying or doing things that are toxic will change. They really don't want to be toxic. Mm-hmm. . And even sometimes people who are bullies and, and they know rule , Bob Sutton talks about, uh, people who are bonafide and people who are temporary, .

Kim:

And so, uh, making sure that you're, you're creating, again, creating the space for, for improvement is really important. While again, at the same time protecting yourself. Um, I think bullying the, the deeper definitions of bullying say that someone is intentionally causing harm and they're doing it repeatedly. Mm-hmm. And they won't stop when you point it out to them. Mm-hmm. Uh, and so I think that is, is useful to think about. Whereas like there I tell a bunch of stories in the book about times when I bullied people. Yeah. But when they pointed it out to me, I did stop . So I think I was a temporary bully, not a bonafide bully.

Lauren:

Hmm. just for five minutes. Yes. One last question I'll come back to. We started on this, but just to make sure we get a, a clear a answer for everyone. What if the bully is your manager? What's your advice?

Kim:

Yeah. When the bully is your manager, you're often moving into either verbal harassment territory or you're moving into, into physical violation territory. Mm-hmm. , uh, uh, there's, when you layer power on top of bullying, you get behavior that that gets much worse. So I think that the, the, the first thing to do is build solidarity. Like look for, talk to other people. I think start to document what is happening and find your exit option. And then you have a choice. You could talk directly to your manager, you could talk to HR or you could just quit. Hmm. And there's no one right answer in that situation. But I think that I, if you feel pretty confident that you do have other options and if you would prefer to keep that job cuz you like it for maybe you like your colleagues, maybe you like the actual content of your work, I think it's worth it to try to have a conversation mm-hmm. with your boss. Uh, I mean, again, don't, don't go into it in a fool hearty way, which I've done many times in my life. I ha I had a I had a boss who told me my jeans weren't tight enough and then he sent someone on the team out to buy me the tightest pair of pants I'd ever owned in my life. ,

Lauren:

Gosh.

Kim:

I know, gross. And, and I was so like, deep in denial, I called a friend and I said, oh, you know, isn't this nice? He's trying to help me . And she was like, Hey, uh, Kim, you've lost your mind here. This is not nice. And so I think it's, I think that it is important to, to talk to other people and to make sure that you're not, you're neither so deeply gaslit that you're trying to convince yourself that this person is doing you favors when they're absolutely not. And I think it is at the same time, important to, to talk to the, and I did wind up talking to him. I didn't wind up staying there, but he's never bought anybody tight jeans ever again. . So he, so thank goodness.

Lauren:

Thank you Kim. Kim, I wanna make sure actually we get a chance for you to share your purple flag. A lot of the storytelling examples we have have been around how individuals can disrupt, you know, a lot of these situations. But would I like to talk about your purple flag. This is something that people could potentially introduce at an organizational level and take that burden off individuals. Yes. Do you wanna give us like a very short description of what it is and how you use it?

Kim:

Yes, absolutely. So what can leaders do to make it more likely that upstanders will stand up to bias when they notice it and that people who are harmed by bias know what to, what to say when they don't know what to say? Mm-hmm. . So there's three things, three steps that, that leaders can take. The first is to come up with a shared vocabulary. What's the word or phrase that you and your team will use to disrupt bias when they notice it? So, I like purple flag. Uh, I was working with, uh, the IDEO team and we agree that there is something that's more beautiful that we, that this could use some designing. So we're gonna come up with something better than the purple flag, but that's what I like. Other teams though, throw up a peace sign. Another team will say, I don't think you meant that the way it sounded.

Kim:

Another team will say, ouch. The key thing is to, to sit down with your team and agree on a shared vocabulary. So that's step number one. Step number two is to agree on a norm for how to respond when you're the person who caused harm. When it's to you who's biased, who's being pointed out. Cause I don't know about you all, but when someone points out to me that I've said or done something biased, I feel deeply ashamed. And when I'm in shame brain, I am never at my best. And so it's useful to be able to fall back on kind of a, a script almost. So thank you for pointing it out. And either I get it and I'm working on not doing it again, or I don't get it. And that second thing is really hard to say. Cause now I'm doubly ashamed.

Kim:

I'm ashamed cause I've harmed someone and I'm ashamed cuz I'm ignorant. I don't even know what I did wrong. But we are all bound to be in that situation. Some of the time in this. We are living in a world of bias, pattern makers. Some of the patterns are bad. And only if we can disrupt that bias publicly, can we not reinforce it, can we begin to develop a better pattern. Which brings me to the third step. If you get to the end of a meeting and nobody has waived the purple flag or whatever word or phrase you're using, then take a beat. 30 seconds. I'm not talking about a long time. We're talking about disrupting bias, not disrupting every meeting you're ever in, but take a beat to say, what did we miss? What did, did someone say or do something that was biased in this meeting? And in fact, I invite all of you, I bet I said or did some bias things in the course of this. Please tell me what they are, drop it into the chat, uh, because I wanna know, I wanna get better.

Lauren:

Awesome. Well thank you so much Kim. Thank you for taking a moment to explain that and inviting others to, uh, design something or share something in their own organizations. And yes, once uh, Kim and IDEO have worked on the evolution of the purple flag, we will share that out as well. Um, so thank you all for joining us today on the Creative Confidence Podcast. Today we've been hearing from Kim Scott, author of Just Work about how to confront bias, prejudice, and bullying at work. I encourage you to grab a copy of her book, also start using the I, it, you Just Work framework yourselves. Kim has lots of specific tools that you can apply to your work immediately. IDEO U offers online courses on design thinking, innovation, leadership, collaboration and more. If you're looking for more resources to help foster collaboration and tap into diverse perspectives in your team, I invite you to check out our course on Cultivating Creative Collaboration, which starts just in a few weeks on May 25th. You can find out more information about that course at ideou.com/collaboration. Our course, uh, enrollment closes tonight actually, so please check it out. Just go to ideou.com. Once again, thank you so much, Kim. We really appreciate you joining us on the podcast.

Kim:

Thank you so much. Loved being here.

Lauren:

All right. Thanks everyone. Thanks for calling in.

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